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This question comes up on this forum occasionally but I haven't read anywhere yet that people with normal financial situations (not prominent rich people with legal problems involving the parent) are being forced to pay for their parents' care. I do have the impression that laws vary by state. What state or states are you and your parents in? Maybe someone will have more specific info regarding your state.
Georgia. She was just transferred from a hospital to a nursing/rehab facility on Tuesday and today she called and said that she did not want us to call her, the nursing home or contact them in any way. She said she was afraid that would make us financially responsible and hung up. Mom would never turn us kids away... she did say that they had her signing a big long contract today and so that got us thinking that maybe they implied that we would be held responsible. So I looked and found out about the Filial law. Hence my question.
You know, I am definitely not a lawyer or legal professional of any kind but kind of looking around on the internet for Georgia specifically I am not finding anything alarming so far. Maybe your mom became overwhelmed with the paperwork/fine print that she had to deal with and after giving your info as next of kin info, panicked that somehow she had involved you in payment? I don't think she could sign anything that would somehow get you on the hook for her care.
I'm wondering if she had developed some anxiety or delirium in the hospital that seniors sometimes experience, and this is a symptom of it? I would call the nursing home and see what they say.
Jazz - I don’t think you need to fret about filial law, but, whomever is your mom’s DPOA should be concerned as to mom’s medical situation and how mom will be planning to or able to pay for the costs of rehab and then for whatever care or assistance she might need once out of rehab.
If she’s on Medicare, then a post hospitalization discharge to rehab is a 100% covered benefit ONLY for 20/21 days. But after that it can continue with a copay due but only if mom is “progressing” in rehab. And if she cannot return home then she will need to stay in the facility and figure out how to pay and quickly or move into a family members home so family can caregive. You know that Somewhere in that stack of documents she signed likely will be an authorization of financial responsibility for any debts created by her admission to rehab/nursing home and allowing the facility to go after any assets she has to settle her bill with any disagreements settled by arbitration. Facilities know the MediCARE benefit limits and they need to do whatever business practices to ensure they get paid.
I would be very very concerned that she is not aware of what she signed or what ramifications it could mean to her. That phone call, well it sounds, like she is scared and worried. But perhaps this is not unusual for her?
Any idea what her medical situation is? Has anything like this ever happened before?
If need be and she cannot progress in rehab and cannot return to her old life/ her home, does she have 50-75k sitting in a bank account to be able to drawn on easily to private pay for her care for 6 mos or so? That should be enough time for her & you & the rest of the family to figure out finances and meet with an elder law atty to do any paperwork needed.
Thank you everyone. Mom is not the type to freak out easily. She is in rehab because of her kidneys and colon..she has all of her mental faculties and is sharp as a whip. She is on Medicare and hopefully Medicaid and while I would love to say that she could manage at home, I do not think that is the case. We all believe that she will be converting from rehab to nursing home care. She has no money... Gets $700 a month from Social Security.
I have done research and while the Filial is not commonly used, it has been used in some cases recently. I have also researched and seen where some assisted living facilities have been known to try many tactics to get the family to pay for the care. None of us are well off enough to be able to take on that cost. There is no POA for finances... we have not gotten that far as this has been a quick onset of issues with her colon and such.
Since she has invoked HIPPA and has told us not to call or contact her or the facility, how would you suggest we find out what is going on?
It’s unusual to have a parent invoke HIPPA against their kids..... as usually it’s the favorite kid who becomes DPOA. Not to sound harsh or judgmental, does mom have mental health issues or is there bad blood between her & her family? It happens and it’s going to be complex to get involved at this point in time.
My goodness you don’t know what she has for a secondary insurance do you? Or what her income / assets are? So it’s a blank book, that’s it right? If she’s gone nuclear on family - which excluding family from her life is to me - then family is left with little choices... you can go guardianship route OR let her flounder in dealing with getting through the LTC maze of Medicaid & Medicare and with her ultimately being either discharged from facility to deal with her life or she’s made a ward of the state. Ward means state names a guardian for her and takes over any decision making for her.
If she’s competent and cognitive, getting guardship will be difficult. You would need to front the costs to do this as an guardianship attorney is needed. If awarded, then you can be reimbursed from her $. But if she truly has no $$, then costs all on you.
If your looking at the Pittas case regarding filial law, to me this is not at all the usual elder in a NH & cannot pay situation. Pittas involved him 60 yr old mom who was in auto accident and then went from hospitalization to a rehab facility and then she left rehab AMA and moved back to Greece where she is a citizen & her husband lives. So at 60she was not old enough for MediCARE for her and there should be a auto insurance claim / tort action involved. Now she applied for Medicaid but didn’t do the follow through to get all documentation needed for application to get processed. Sonny signed Medicaid application for mom & dealt with auto claim. Mom left rehab with like 90k bill due to interest & fees. They went to arbitration to settle bill as that is what is in admissions paperwork. Arbitration was in Sonny’s favor. But the rehab - part of a national chain- wasn’t happy so filed a lawsuit against Sonny which is allowed as they do not have to accept arbitration ruling. He’s in PA and it’s a before a judge hearing not a jury. Judge ruled in rehabs favor. Sonny & his atty imho did not prepare for the judge trial.... I think they were feeling pretty pretty clever after arbitration was in their favor, they did not enjoin Sonny’s Sisters in the suit (had they then responsibility shared 1/3), & presented no witnesses. Your mom has Medicare which is paying some of her Heath care costs and your mom’s not moving back to Greece, right? Lol & you’ve got to keep your sense of humor in this.... Unless you personally sign documents to be financially responsible then mom’s bill is not your problem. Facility will do whatever to get you to take oversight, responsibility, concern, whatever but they cannot legally force you to. They can contact APS and then APS gets emergency ward of the state action done.
I believe your Mom signed an Admission Form to the Nursing Home as well as a Medicaid Application. As your last post states you & family are OK with her transferring to NH from Rehab so this would be the next logical step for her to seamlessly transfer to long term Nursing Home Care in that facility.
I am no expert but the NH where my Mom was receiving rehab post stroke tried to get us to sign a lengthy (over an hour to explain!) form stating it was for "rehab." This is why your Mom is concerned & yes "scared." It was intimidating for me at the time as they discuss all financial aspects of your particular situation. EVERYTHING!
Something just didn't seem right so I refused to sign. To say they were unhappy is an understatement! The chances for Moms recovery were slim but we were not ready to admit her to the NH only a week into rehab. Fast forward 3 yrs later & she is happily still at home having recovered full use of her paralyzed right side after 3 mo of intense rehab. Yes she was in tears many times but we continued to push & encourage her through it. She is of tough Finnish descent....it's called "sisu" in Finnish.
Please know that I am not judging your decision. Your Mom has other issues & you must do what is best for all involved. I only state my case here for others who may be coerced into signing their LO into a NH. After speaking to an Elder Atty, he said it was a good thing I did not sign as it was a Medicaid App which we were not even close to prepared for. The person @ the NH who stayed overtime that day to coax us to sign off is no longer there I might add!
In your case I think you are OK with Mom signing off & something tells me the fact that you were not present when your Mom signed is probably a good thing going forward. Let the dust settle & when you visit your Mom you should find a "copy" in her room.......they are supposed to give her one. If you don't see one ask about it or have Mom ask. Let Mom know that you "looking" @ the form will have no financial impact for you.
Jazzing, I'm prepared to be corrected but if you read closely through those case histories I believe you'll see that not one of them involved families who were not extremely well off and making flagrant attempts to play the system.
Think through the cost-benefit analysis: pursuing families with debatable liability, for money they haven't got anyway, would be an exercise in expensive futility. No votes in it, either. Even the most inept state is going to hesitate before it tries that kind of action routinely.
Your mother is, however, not wrong to be wary of your exposing yourself to liability (she is perhaps being a little extreme). Phone calls are fine! - just mind what you're being asked to put your signature to.
Thank you all.. Lucy your response was very reassuring. I do believe she was intimidated and while she is very smart, she may have just been over-reacting and or just protecting us. I know everything there is to know about Mom and I do know that I am her executor and know all of her financial affairs and have taken over paying all of her bills for her while she has been in the hospital which was for over a month and up to now... so for the replies that implied maybe she was keeping things from me or that there was bad blood with the family, please know that this is not the case. I took FMLA to be there for her while she was in the hospital and would have still been there today if I could be. I will be going back at the end of the month or sooner if she calls that she needs me. Regardless, I have never dealt with this before and appreciate the information and assistance. It is hard to believe that nursing homes would do anything underhanded, but something scared mom and it hurts me.
Jazzing You live in a capitalistic country. Nursing Homes are big business. The people in the front office won’t be there long if they don’t cover all the bases. Medicare (a socialist concept) with all its flaws is so huge that if a NH wants to do business with the masses they have to agree to Medicare rules and procedures but outside of the first 20 days if your mom doesn’t have a supplemental insurance plan there will be charges. So whatever mom signs, is on mom. UNLESS they can get someone else on the hook. Like you. Mom’s instincts are good. But it doesn’t make the NH underhanded. It’s a big ole buyer beware world out there. It’s too bad you weren’t able to be with her before she signed anything but do as Igloo suggested and see what it was.
Also, Pick up a copy of “Being Mortal:Medicine and what Matters in the End” by Atul Gawande. It’s very informative and a quick read.
Now that you have explained your relationship with your mom, could it be she is trying to get you back to work and her busy with rehab? Very unusual if that’s the case.
Or she could be trying to circumvent you placing her in LTC and that’s when Igloos response is important to understand about how the state has to take over when no one else is appointed.
She does need you to advocate for her and make sure she is ok.
One more thing, being the executor of your mom’s will is not going to enable you to do anything for her while she is alive. It does imply that she has assets.
You need a DPOA for medical and financial to help her make decisions should she need you. You can’t wait on that. If she owns a home or has other assets you need to understand how that works. A certified elder attorney proficient in filing for medicaid can help her with that. You might find help there at the Rehab.
Being in the hospital sometimes causes confusion for elders but hopefully in a few days she’ll realize it’s safe to talk to you.
Jazz I don't believe your Mom invoked HIPPA....she WAS just protecting you.I would be surprised if the staff bars you from seeing her. Only one way to find out,right?
So go to her ASAP as if nothing is going on. If she shows any signs of not wanting you there give her the suhhh sign with finger over lips & tiptoe in until you can whisper that all is OK & how much you miss her! I doubt this will be necessary but just in case you will be prepared.
Trust me your Mom did not over react...it was so scary to me. I can only imagine your Mom all alone having to process it. And yes so hurtful to know this goes on. That's why I urge you to visit & agree with her assessment ....she is correct & needs your support right now.
In my story I left out the piece that prior to the request to sign Admission/Medicaid forms the NH gave me a "free" POA. I was so happy to have scored a free important document until they showed up the very next day with the forms ASKING ME to sign! And remember they explained these documents as a Rehab admission which clearly they were not as we already signed the Rehab paperwork. I immediately responded that Mom should be the one to sign & she said "but you have POA." And I asked "how do you know that?" to which she said "I was in the office next door when you obtained it." I call that COERCION for sure!
I am so glad I could help. Please keep us informed...stay strong & united with your sweet Mom...
Have to keep always in mind that we have a capitalistic system in this country, you know, free-market, get whatever you can, everyone for themselves. I hear people who are terrified of socialism, but the fact is that the human race would not be able to survive without socialism, particularly the family, which is the major socialistic organization. So if you believe in capitalism, then be consistent and accept the rules and their consequences. For too long, too many people, especially women, have been sacrificing to plug holes in our leaky boat, so it looks like capitalism is just dandy, as long as you ignore morality based compassion and generosity - which are not part of the free market thinking. Time to call this lying ***what it is.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
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You know, I am definitely not a lawyer or legal professional of any kind but kind of looking around on the internet for Georgia specifically I am not finding anything alarming so far. Maybe your mom became overwhelmed with the paperwork/fine print that she had to deal with and after giving your info as next of kin info, panicked that somehow she had involved you in payment? I don't think she could sign anything that would somehow get you on the hook for her care.
I'm wondering if she had developed some anxiety or delirium in the hospital that seniors sometimes experience, and this is a symptom of it? I would call the nursing home and see what they say.
If she’s on Medicare, then a post hospitalization discharge to rehab is a 100% covered benefit ONLY for 20/21 days. But after that it can continue with a copay due but only if mom is “progressing” in rehab. And if she cannot return home then she will need to stay in the facility and figure out how to pay and quickly or move into a family members home so family can caregive. You know that Somewhere in that stack of documents she signed likely will be an authorization of financial responsibility for any debts created by her admission to rehab/nursing home and allowing the facility to go after any assets she has to settle her bill with any disagreements settled by arbitration. Facilities know the MediCARE benefit limits and they need to do whatever business practices to ensure they get paid.
I would be very very concerned that she is not aware of what she signed or what ramifications it could mean to her. That phone call, well it sounds, like she is scared and worried. But perhaps this is not unusual for her?
Any idea what her medical situation is?
Has anything like this ever happened before?
If need be and she cannot progress in rehab and cannot return to her old life/ her home, does she have 50-75k sitting in a bank account to be able to drawn on easily to private pay for her care for 6 mos or so? That should be enough time for her & you & the rest of the family to figure out finances and meet with an elder law atty to do any paperwork needed.
I have done research and while the Filial is not commonly used, it has been used in some cases recently. I have also researched and seen where some assisted living facilities have been known to try many tactics to get the family to pay for the care. None of us are well off enough to be able to take on that cost. There is no POA for finances... we have not gotten that far as this has been a quick onset of issues with her colon and such.
Since she has invoked HIPPA and has told us not to call or contact her or the facility, how would you suggest we find out what is going on?
Maybe go to facility and ask to see any contracts a patient would be required to sign, no HIPPA violations, blank forms.
Then after you read ask if you can see your mom, she may not have told them no visitors, or ask for supervised visit.
The stress needs to be alleviated for her to have the best chance of speedy rehab.
Best of luck getting this all sorted out.
My goodness you don’t know what she has for a secondary insurance do you?
Or what her income / assets are?
So it’s a blank book, that’s it right?
If she’s gone nuclear on family - which excluding family from her life is to me - then family is left with little choices... you can go guardianship route OR let her flounder in dealing with getting through the LTC maze of Medicaid & Medicare and with her ultimately being either discharged from facility to deal with her life or she’s made a ward of the state. Ward means state names a guardian for her and takes over any decision making for her.
If she’s competent and cognitive, getting guardship will be difficult. You would need to front the costs to do this as an guardianship attorney is needed. If awarded, then you can be reimbursed from her $. But if she truly has no $$, then costs all on you.
If your looking at the Pittas case regarding filial law, to me this is not at all the usual elder in a NH & cannot pay situation. Pittas involved him 60 yr old mom who was in auto accident and then went from hospitalization to a rehab facility and then she left rehab AMA and moved back to Greece where she is a citizen & her husband lives. So at 60she was not old enough for MediCARE for her and there should be a auto insurance claim / tort action involved. Now she applied for Medicaid but didn’t do the follow through to get all documentation needed for application to get processed. Sonny signed Medicaid application for mom & dealt with auto claim. Mom left rehab with like 90k bill due to interest & fees. They went to arbitration to settle bill as that is what is in admissions paperwork. Arbitration was in Sonny’s favor. But the rehab - part of a national chain- wasn’t happy so filed a lawsuit against Sonny which is allowed as they do not have to accept arbitration ruling. He’s in PA and it’s a before a judge hearing not a jury. Judge ruled in rehabs favor. Sonny & his atty imho did not prepare for the judge trial.... I think they were feeling pretty pretty clever after arbitration was in their favor, they did not enjoin Sonny’s Sisters in the suit (had they then responsibility shared 1/3), & presented no witnesses. Your mom has Medicare which is paying some of her Heath care costs and your mom’s not moving back to Greece, right? Lol & you’ve got to keep your sense of humor in this.... Unless you personally sign documents to be financially responsible then mom’s bill is not your problem. Facility will do whatever to get you to take oversight, responsibility, concern, whatever but they cannot legally force you to. They can contact APS and then APS gets emergency ward of the state action done.
I am no expert but the NH where my Mom was receiving rehab post stroke tried to get us to sign a lengthy (over an hour to explain!) form stating it was for "rehab." This is why your Mom is concerned & yes "scared." It was intimidating for me at the time as they discuss all financial aspects of your particular situation. EVERYTHING!
Something just didn't seem right so I refused to sign. To say they were unhappy is an understatement! The chances for Moms recovery were slim but we were not ready to admit her to the NH only a week into rehab. Fast forward 3 yrs later & she is happily still at home having recovered full use of her paralyzed right side after 3 mo of intense rehab. Yes she was in tears many times but we continued to push & encourage her through it. She is of tough Finnish descent....it's called "sisu" in Finnish.
Please know that I am not judging your decision. Your Mom has other issues & you must do what is best for all involved. I only state my case here for others who may be coerced into signing their LO into a NH. After speaking to an Elder Atty, he said it was a good thing I did not sign as it was a Medicaid App which we were not even close to prepared for. The person @ the NH who stayed overtime that day to coax us to sign off is no longer there I might add!
In your case I think you are OK with Mom signing off & something tells me the fact that you were not present when your Mom signed is probably a good thing going forward. Let the dust settle & when you visit your Mom you should find a "copy" in her room.......they are supposed to give her one. If you don't see one ask about it or have Mom ask. Let Mom know that you "looking" @ the form will have no financial impact for you.
Good luck.......
Think through the cost-benefit analysis: pursuing families with debatable liability, for money they haven't got anyway, would be an exercise in expensive futility. No votes in it, either. Even the most inept state is going to hesitate before it tries that kind of action routinely.
Your mother is, however, not wrong to be wary of your exposing yourself to liability (she is perhaps being a little extreme). Phone calls are fine! - just mind what you're being asked to put your signature to.
I know everything there is to know about Mom and I do know that I am her executor and know all of her financial affairs and have taken over paying all of her bills for her while she has been in the hospital which was for over a month and up to now... so for the replies that implied maybe she was keeping things from me or that there was bad blood with the family, please know that this is not the case.
I took FMLA to be there for her while she was in the hospital and would have still been there today if I could be. I will be going back at the end of the month or sooner if she calls that she needs me.
Regardless, I have never dealt with this before and appreciate the information and assistance. It is hard to believe that nursing homes would do anything underhanded, but something scared mom and it hurts me.
You live in a capitalistic country. Nursing Homes are big business. The people in the front office won’t be there long if they don’t cover all the bases. Medicare (a socialist concept) with all its flaws is so huge that if a NH wants to do business with the masses they have to agree to Medicare rules and procedures but outside of the first 20 days if your mom doesn’t have a supplemental insurance plan there will be charges. So whatever mom signs, is on mom.
UNLESS they can get someone else on the hook. Like you. Mom’s instincts are good. But it doesn’t make the NH underhanded. It’s a big ole buyer beware world out there. It’s too bad you weren’t able to be with her before she signed anything but do as Igloo suggested and see what it was.
Also, Pick up a copy of “Being Mortal:Medicine and what Matters in the End” by Atul Gawande. It’s very informative and a quick read.
Now that you have explained your relationship with your mom, could it be she is trying to get you back to work and her busy with rehab? Very unusual if that’s the case.
Or she could be trying to circumvent you placing her in LTC and that’s when Igloos response is important to understand about how the state has to take over when no one else is appointed.
She does need you to advocate for her and make sure she is ok.
One more thing, being the executor of your mom’s will is not going to enable you to do anything for her while she is alive. It does imply that she has assets.
You need a DPOA for medical and financial to help her make decisions should she need you. You can’t wait on that. If she owns a home or has other assets you need to understand how that works. A certified elder attorney proficient in filing for medicaid can help her with that. You might find help there at the Rehab.
Being in the hospital sometimes causes confusion for elders but hopefully in a few days she’ll realize it’s safe to talk to you.
I don't believe your Mom invoked HIPPA....she WAS just protecting you.I would be surprised if the staff bars you from seeing her. Only one way to find out,right?
So go to her ASAP as if nothing is going on. If she shows any signs of not wanting you there give her the suhhh sign with finger over lips & tiptoe in until you can whisper that all is OK & how much you miss her! I doubt this will be necessary but just in case you will be prepared.
Trust me your Mom did not over react...it was so scary to me. I can only imagine your Mom all alone having to process it. And yes so hurtful to know this goes on. That's why I urge you to visit & agree with her assessment ....she is correct & needs your support right now.
In my story I left out the piece that prior to the request to sign Admission/Medicaid forms the NH gave me a "free" POA. I was so happy to have scored a free important document until they showed up the very next day with the forms ASKING ME to sign! And remember they explained these documents as a Rehab admission which clearly they were not as we already signed the Rehab paperwork. I immediately responded that Mom should be the one to sign & she said "but you have POA." And I asked "how do you know that?" to which she said "I was in the office next door when you obtained it." I call that COERCION for sure!
I am so glad I could help. Please keep us informed...stay strong & united with your sweet Mom...